Escaping the Algorithm: Taking Back Control from Your Devices | Eli Singer
Listen on: Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Youtube
In this holiday bonus episode of Viewpoints, host Sean Rasmussen sits down with Eli Singer, a pioneer at the crossroads of people and technology, to explore our complicated relationships with screens and devices. After two decades in social media marketing—helping early teams at Google, Coca-Cola, Ford, and MoMA—Eli Singer watched the internet transform from a tool for community building into an engine of attention-harvesting. Now, as founder of Offline.now, he’s dedicated to helping people build healthier digital habits.
Sean Rasmussen and Eli Singer dive into why so many of us struggle to manage our screen time, how our devices are carefully designed to capture (and monetize) our attention, and what practical steps anyone can take to regain control. They discuss the four digital “personality types” that describe people’s relationships with their phones, and Eli Singer shares non-judgmental, actionable strategies to reduce dependency and reconnect with the offline world.
Whether you feel overwhelmed, “stuck,” or just want to function better, this episode offers a supportive and practical approach for anyone wanting a healthier relationship with tech.
Guest Links:
Website: https://offline.now/
Book Link (Amazon): https://www.amazon.ca/Offline-now-Practical-Healthy-Digital-Balance/dp/1069515639/
Summary of Topics Discussed in This Episode:
From the Birth of Online Community to Attention Harvesting
Sean Rasmussen kicks off the conversation sharing his own struggles with screen time—a familiar phenomenon for anyone with a smartphone. Eli Singer, who has witnessed the digital revolution up close, reflects on two decades of watching the Internet shift from a place of connecting people and building community to what he calls “attention harvesting,” where platforms and devices are designed to capture and dominate our focus for profit.
He describes how the business model of the web evolved, leading companies to relentlessly target users with notifications, keeping them in a constant feedback loop of engagement—a cycle that can be hard to break.
Why Managing Technology Is So Hard
So why do so many people feel overwhelmed by their devices? Eli Singer likens it to ice cream: the first taste brings us joy (that dopamine hit), but we quickly need more to achieve the same effect. Digital experiences are immersive, rewarding, and designed to be hard to put down. Half of adults now feel they spend too much time on their phones—yet only a small percentage are clinically addicted. For the rest of us, it’s about finding a healthier balance rather than abstaining completely.
Offline.now: Practical Support for Digital Balance
To address this, Eli Singer founded Offline.Now—a company and community committed to helping people forge healthier relationships with their devices. The platform offers self-assessment tools, resources like books and blog posts, and a curated directory of coaches and therapists (more than 80 different specialties!) to guide people in making lasting changes.
Importantly, Offline.Now doesn’t just support individuals—it also empowers coaches and therapists to connect with those seeking help, fostering a “virtuous platform” where both sides benefit.
Know Thyself: The Offline Matrix
A highlight of the episode is Eli Singer’s “Offline Matrix”—a simple framework that helps people understand their motivation and confidence when it comes to tech use. By identifying yourself in one of four types—Ready, Overwhelmed, Unconcerned, or Stuck—you can tailor your approach to changing habits, whether it’s by building small wins, acknowledging where you’re stuck, or simply pushing yourself a bit further.
Sean Rasmussen appreciates the non-judgmental approach: this isn’t about shaming people, but empowering them to reflect honestly and take actionable steps that work for their unique situation.
Practical Tools and Tiny Experiments
Sean Rasmussen and Eli Singer discuss practical strategies from the book and website, such as “taming the notification beast,” creating device-free zones, or conducting small experiments—like leaving the house without your phone for a short walk. The idea is not to punish yourself, but to gently expand your comfort zone and rediscover offline joys.
For those who doubt their dependency, “test yourself honestly,” says Eli Singer. If you think you can part with your device, try a phone-free day or weekend—then reflect on how it made you feel.
Beyond the Individual: Social Expectations and the Power of Community
Changing tech habits isn’t only a personal challenge—it’s also social. Our devices are woven into relationships at home, at work, and in the wider community. Eli Singer notes the value of communicating with others about your digital boundaries—whether to family, friends, or coworkers—to create mutual understanding and healthier expectations.
He even points to traditions like the Jewish Shabbat as models for intentional device-free time, celebrating the restorative benefits of disconnection—one day a week to be truly present.
Conclusion: A Call for Digital Literacy and Mindful Use
As the episode wraps up, both Sean Rasmussen and Eli Singer emphasize that tech isn’t inherently bad, but achieving balance is crucial—especially as studies reveal the mental health impacts of device overuse. Giving language to our feelings (“I’m overwhelmed,” “I’m stuck”) is the first step to regaining agency.
For anyone looking to take control of their tech habits, Eli Singer recommends starting with a simple self-assessment at Offline Now and experimenting with one small change. Over time, tiny steps can lead to profound transformation.
Resources
Final Thoughts
This episode offers hope, inspiration, and practical wisdom for anyone feeling overwhelmed by their devices. By reflecting on our own habits, leveraging community support, and making small, intentional changes, we can all move toward a healthier relationship with technology—without the guilt.
Transcript:
Machine Generated so expect typos.
Eli Singer [00:00:00]:
These environments can feel so delightful, especially compared to, you know, sometimes the real world can be a little bit blah. So there’s the escapist piece, but there’s also the fact that these tools are designed to maintain your attention, to distract you from what you’re trying to focus on, to get your attention because they want it so that they can build a stronger relationship with you and monetize that behavior. And so people have problems managing that.
Sean Rasmussen [00:00:30]:
This is Viewpoints, a deeper look into the ideas that shape our politics and culture. Break free from the orthodoxies of mainstream media and hear diverse perspectives from interesting people across the political spectrum.
Sean Rasmussen [00:00:50]:
This is Viewpoints. I’m Shawn Rasmussen. Eli Singer has spent over two decades building at the intersection of people and technology. He helped early teams at Google, Coca Cola, Ford and MoMA use social media well and founded and exited one of North America’s first social marketing agencies. Over that time, he watched the web shift from community building to attention harvesting and felt the impact of that change both at work and at home. He’s now founder and CEO of Offline Now, a platform and community for people interested in healthier green habits. Eli, welcome to Viewpoints.
Eli Singer [00:01:27]:
Really happy to be here, Sean. Thanks for having me.
Sean Rasmussen [00:01:29]:
We did a prep call a few weeks ago to planning for this episode and I have to say ever since that conversation I’ve been thinking about this nonstop. I find this so fascinating. I’ve been looking at my own habits also too, just observing in the world the way that people are with their phones. Everyone seems to be head into their phones all the time now. So I’m really glad to have this conversation about this topic.
Eli Singer [00:01:55]:
I’m happy to be here. You know, noticing is the most important first step. And you know, over years our habits around technology and where we use the phones, how we use the phones or other screens, you know, whether they’re on the in a game system or at the office or a computer or a portable device or a tablet, they’ve just become just a natural part of our lives. And I think it’s just important to have a conscious approach when you start thinking about where those screens are present and where you might want to reduce their presence.
Sean Rasmussen [00:02:30]:
According to a 2024 Pew Research study, nearly 50% of adults feel they spend too much time on their phones. What do you make of that data?
Eli Singer [00:02:40]:
Well, the most interesting thing is 7% of Americans are clinical. So that means 43% of people are self diagnosing themselves as having what could be a clinical issue, which means it’s serious in Their minds. And that means the other 50% of Americans, or let’s say 30 to 40% of those American adults, might not see themselves as having an addiction, but could probably identify a couple places in their lives where they might want to improve their relationship with the screens in their lives. So I think overall, everybody recognizes at an individual level, in the family unit, in the workplace, in the community, that we could all be doing better and it’s harmful.
Sean Rasmussen [00:03:23]:
Yeah. And what’s your connection to the issue? I mean, I mentioned in the intro your experiences, like working in social media marketing for 20 years. Can you talk a bit about that? And what led you to this interest that you have now? And healthy screen habits?
Eli Singer [00:03:36]:
I mean, I always loved the Internet. I was into computers when I was like 10, 11 years old. And I happened to be a creative guy that went to business school. So in the early 2000s, I got involved in research, think tank, what is this thing called the Internet? How’s it going to affect business, society and culture? And I loved studying it. There was so much opportunity for connecting people together, sharing ideas. All kinds of new business ideas were emerging, new ways of empowering people’s voices. And then new media came along. Right before it was social media, it was doing the same thing, was democratizing media, was giving people a voice. And I loved helping brands and companies and nonprofits, like, understand how to harness that in a, in a way that built community in a positive fashion. But somewhere along the way, I mean, we all know where that happened. Like early on, the business model shifted to an advertising based model as opposed to like a co creation model. And as that started to happen, the need to target the data, the need to profile information became the underpinning foundation of the business, of the web. And so capturing all of that. And we saw it, right? We saw Facebook continually rolling out products. And I remember Facebook Beacon first that came out, and people were in uproar that they were monitoring everything. So there were times it went pushed a little too far and times that it pulled back, but I just saw that evolution. And then towards the end of the 2010s and into the 2015s, it was pretty overwhelming. It was pretty obvious that this was just raw data capture for people that had no idea that they were being encouraged to share absolutely everything online. And everything became a data point. And, you know, then as the need to drive up, engagement started to ramp, then all of a sudden you start to see these kind of negative loops, negative engagement loops that started kind of tearing at the fabric of society and you started to hear about these algorithmic bubbles, news bubbles that people were in. So, you know, I saw that curve happen from the inside and not to mention like growing older myself, having a family, having kids, watching them grow up, watching their friends in school, trying to manage that whole experience. So that was my, you know, 50,000 foot view of the whole thing. And then professionally I had some training around coaching and ADHD support and so got, and with camh, did some digital addiction courses as well and started to get a lens into how to support people and where some of the missed opportunities were. And so just sort of started to boil it all together, you know.
Sean Rasmussen [00:06:41]:
And so you’ve decided to start a company dedicated to helping people with this issue.
Eli Singer [00:06:45]:
Yeah, and I’m really excited about it and I’m really excited to see where it goes. Right offline now is a company, we are incorporated, we do have a revenue model, but at the heart of it we’re just there to support people and give them the resources that they need to achieve their goals. And for people like everyday people, that’s a straightforward, simple self assessment that helps them identify how they can change their habits. And a variety of resources, a book, blog post, more to come. But then it’s also introductions to a whole array of coaches, therapists and social workers out there that are trained and are able to support people. And we have them on the website sorted into over 80 different categories, direct or indirectly related to all kinds of screen behaviors. And the other group that we’re helping are those coaches and therapists and social workers that are not Internet marketers. But if they can’t get their own direct clients, then they need to work for others and give up 30, 40, sometimes almost approaching 50% of their hourly rate. And it’s hard to make a living. And so what we’re trying to do is funnel those clients, you know, those individuals directly to these coaches so that they can, you know, be independent professionals. So it’s a, it’s kind of a virtuous platform.
Sean Rasmussen [00:08:17]:
And why do people find it so hard to manage this new technology that’s out? It seems very hard. I actually struggle myself with maybe over checking things, statuses and things like that. Too often it doesn’t feel good. It can feel anxiety inducing or tiring or. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about it.
Eli Singer [00:08:36]:
It’s like ice cream, right? The first lick is the best and then you get. The law of diminishing returns kicks in. So it’s the same with the screens and the dopamine hit and Then.
Eli Singer [00:08:50]:
You need more and more to get you to that same place. Now, the companies that are producing the hardware and the software and the experience that are coming through these devices, they can be immersive. Like, think about the gaming experiences. They’re immersive worlds filled with color and sound and wonderful behavior, and you’re in control. So these environments can feel so delightful, especially compared to sometimes the real world can be a little bit blah. So there’s the escapist piece, but there’s also the fact that these tools are designed to maintain your attention, to distract you from what you’re trying to focus on, to get your attention, because they want it so that they can build a stronger relationship with you and monetize that behavior. And so people have problems managing that.
Sean Rasmussen [00:09:44]:
Yeah, and I think a lot of people do. Like, I don’t even know anyone who doesn’t, honestly.
Eli Singer [00:09:50]:
Yeah.
Sean Rasmussen [00:09:52]:
What are some common symptoms? You know, like, if we talk about some patterns of behavior that people might have, I wonder if we could just sort of run through some of those that. That you see on a regular basis.
Eli Singer [00:10:00]:
That might be, I mean, taking the phone with you into the bathroom and using it while you’re on the toilet, sleeping with the phone, being in transit, either on the Metro or, you know, in a car, being on a phone, being with partner, family, loved ones, in a living room, at a dinner table, being on a device, not communicating. I mean, these are more universal ones. And, you know, some individuals and families and workplaces might be more intense on their device, and some might be less intense, but I think those are just the common elements.
Sean Rasmussen [00:10:42]:
Yeah. And it has an impact on the way people relate to each other. Right. If there’s a phone on the table.
Eli Singer [00:10:48]:
Yeah. I mean, there have been lots of studies around, just kind of like when your phone dings, your blood pressure might increase. Just having your phone present will create the behavior or the demand to want to pick it up and check it. So, yeah, just having it present is, you know, people, there are phantom foam vibrations. Like, if you’re used to having your phone in a certain pocket, you might be reaching for that pocket even if the phone’s not there. You might think you hear the phone ring or beep and check it just because your brain is used to that habit. So there’s a lot of learned behavior here. Right. There’s a lot of these kind of unconscious mindsets that we’ve developed over very long periods of time with using these devices.
Sean Rasmussen [00:11:32]:
In a way, the technology is so new too, though, right? I mean, when the Gutenberg Press was invented. There was like a hundred years of wars, social, religious wars after that. When we have these communication technologies emerge, it’s like humanity takes a while to adapt to them. Do you think we’re going through something like that now?
Eli Singer [00:11:53]:
You know, I think that’s a really good question. You know, I’m not. I have to know my limits of what I study and where I’m a professional. And you know, it’s certainly not, you know, reflecting on humanity and history and where we’re going. And you know, we’re always evolving and we’re always evolving based on the stimulus in the environments that are around us. I can say that I think it’s pretty fair to say that at all levels of society, at the individual level, the familial level, you know, the country level, the global level, people are wrestling with what is the role of these technologies? Where do they belong? Where do we want to maybe keep them out? Where are they causing problems? How are they creating enormous opportunity that we should be leveraging? How do they improve the world and lives and people around us? There’s an enormous amount of that.
Sean Rasmussen [00:12:49]:
Right.
Eli Singer [00:12:51]:
But I mean, I think we’re just all trying to relate to where they fit in. And you know, in the grand scheme of things, we might be in a transition period, right. Where the phone, this device that we carry around and have to kind of use our fingers on and look at is.
Eli Singer [00:13:12]:
You know, a midway between the desktop where you had to go sit at a device and then some sort of, you know, presence that we engage with that isn’t, that doesn’t require so much mediation and can be more in the background. That’s a little techno futurist stuff.
Sean Rasmussen [00:13:32]:
Yeah, that sounds kind of scary almost.
Eli Singer [00:13:34]:
Yeah. But I mean, you know, I mean, you and I were older than our kids, right. And if I think about my parents, they use technology very differently. Like we’re the last generation that grew up not knowing what having a cell phone was like. We were, you know, and so our kids, kids will grow up in a world where AI will be taken for granted and possibly quite invisible. Right. Like home speakers that you can connect with and communicate might just be another family member at that point.
Sean Rasmussen [00:14:07]:
And how do you feel about that?
Eli Singer [00:14:09]:
I’m bullish on the future. I’m excited about it all. I think there’s enormous opportunity. I just think the moment we’re in now requires us to have more digital balance in our lives. People are coming to our website, they’re completing a two step self assessment and they’re identifying which one of four phone types they are to help set the stage for how they might want to change that relationship. What we’re seeing is, is of the people that come to our site, and so those are people that are predisposed to, you know, being more thoughtful on this topic. 81% of people are within an overwhelmed or ready phone type, which means they’ve got the motivation. They just don’t have the self confidence. So there is a massive amount of motivation out there where I want to make a change. So let’s just support the people to make the changes in their lives that they want to make. We’re not saying throw away your phone or, you know, it’s break up with your phone or you should smash it and never use it and it’s bad. Like it’s a part of your life. So if you’re the kind of person, though, that wants to make a change and has been thinking about it, but you’re having a challenge, let’s give you some tools and help you be successful and achieve your goals.
Sean Rasmussen [00:15:28]:
Yeah. So that’s one thing I noticed about your book. It’s very practical. You dive right into it. There’s a very short intro and then it’s boom. You’re right into the practicalities of working through, dealing with this.
Eli Singer [00:15:43]:
Isn’t that what people want these days? They got very short attention spans. They want solutions. They want it to be real in their lives. They want it to be easy. And they don’t want someone else to tell them what they’re doing wrong and how wrong it is and what the implications of all those wrong things are going to be for them and their kids and their brain and their husbands. And they were like, no, give me some useful, valuable information that I can use right away. I’ve got the capability to make the changes I want in my life. I just need a little help. And that’s cool.
Sean Rasmussen [00:16:23]:
And so we’re talking about people who are, who don’t have like a serious addiction to this. Like, if they come to your book, it’s people who are basically functioning. They’re just wanting to function better.
Eli Singer [00:16:35]:
Okay, so first off, I’m not a therapist. I’m not a social worker. I don’t have that professional training. And I recognize that there is a line here between clinical needs and kind of pop culture needs or, you know, practical help, coaching help. Also, there’s young people under 18, which are children and adults. So I feel comfortable talking to a coaching audience of adults. But the book is relevant and has relevance for everybody and is universal. And the resources at Offline now are universal. If you have an addictions issue, could be a gambling addiction, online shopping addiction, online pornography addiction, online gaming addiction. If you have depression, if you anxiety anxiety, you can find resources on our website that are certified to support you with those issues. If you have adhd, maybe you need a coach, maybe you need a therapist. We have both on the site digital grief and loss, online dating, rejection, relationship stress, couples stress. Maybe you need coaching, maybe you need therapy. We have people on those site that can help you. And I think that’s what’s really special about Offline now. We are the first.
Eli Singer [00:18:03]:
We are the first and primary site on the web squarely focused on digital balance.
Sean Rasmussen [00:18:09]:
Yeah, I really like your approach too. It’s non judgmental. So people are at where they’re at and they have their own reasons for wanting to change their habits but you’re not there to tell them that they’re a bad person for wanting to do this or for not wanting to do it or whatever.
Eli Singer [00:18:24]:
Exactly. I think that’s really crucial. I think that’s part of the coaching mindset that I learned. But you want to meet people where they’re at. There’s enormous amount of shame and judgment on this topic. Right. There are parents that feel guilty about using their phone around their kids when they should be hanging out around their partners or when they’re at the gym and they’re sitting on a machine and they’re checking their email and they know they should be doing something. There’s a lot of shame in their guilt. And that’s okay. That’s part of life. So let’s put that aside. Let’s help you identify what your goals are and what tiny steps, teeny weeny steps that you can take to start you towards that goal and building your confidence.
Sean Rasmussen [00:19:13]:
One of the interesting things about the book I liked was this matrix of basically it’s a way for you to put yourself into a certain type of personality where you’re at with your digital devices and it quickly gets you to a place where you can know what you need to do next. Can we talk a little bit about that matrix and about what those different types of people are? There’s four different types of people.
Eli Singer [00:19:38]:
Sure. So the matrix, it’s a two by two. So there’s a vertical kind of axis which is a low and a high and that’s motivation. So how motivated are you to change your relationship with? It can be your phone, it can be gaming, but it could also be how motivated Are you to not doom, scroll in bed and go to bed at a reasonable hour so you can be specific with it? And the other axis is confidence. How confident are you in your ability to put the phone down when you want to, when you want to go to bed, what have you? And so each one of those is a low and a high. And so then that will create four different types which are ready.
Eli Singer [00:20:23]:
Overwhelmed, stuck and unconcerned. And is there one of those that resonated with you that you want to jump into? Like Sean, did you find when you did that self assessment that you.
Sean Rasmussen [00:20:38]:
Yeah, I would say I’m ready. I’ve been thinking a lot about media sort of for a long time and I’ve done various experiments using, I’ve done media fasts before where I’ve taken anywhere from, you know, a month to six months away from that kind of stuff. And I got a lot out of that. I feel like I, I, I try to think about what these things are doing in my life. So I feel like I’m a ready person.
Eli Singer [00:21:04]:
Yeah. So, so the ready type, 31% of people on who’ve taken the assessment are in ready. And that is high motivation, high self confidence. So someone who’s ready is like, I’m motivated. I’ve made these kinds of changes in my life before. Maybe it’s with my device in the past, maybe it’s with starting a new gym habit or, you know, I know how to get myself to do things. And so for someone who’s ready, we want to give them the resources and tools to be successful and support them on their way, hold them accountable. One important thing to think about with ready is think about what you’re doing right now that’s working. Right. How can you push that 10% and push it a little further if you want to increase your.
Eli Singer [00:21:55]:
To just move further along whatever spectrum you’re at.
Eli Singer [00:22:02]:
And so if you are trying not to use your phone, let’s say for Saturday morning and you know, from wake up till like 11 till after breakfast or till 11am Maybe you want to give yourself an extra hour. Right. Push it until early afternoon if that’s a goal of yours. So the goal Is to push 10%, but 50% of people are in the overwhelmed quadrant.
Sean Rasmussen [00:22:27]:
Okay, can you talk a bit about like describe that person a little bit.
Eli Singer [00:22:29]:
And the overwhelmed person?
Sean Rasmussen [00:22:31]:
Yeah, yeah.
Eli Singer [00:22:31]:
Because I think people overwhelmed person is high motivation. I want to make that change and low self confidence. So I don’t believe I can do it. And so this is a person that Maybe they’ve tried before, but they might have been like, oh, I’m not going to use my phone anymore. I’m just going to delete all my apps, right? Like, that’s it. This was the last time, right.
Eli Singer [00:22:56]:
What they’ve often done is the experiments or the goals that they’ve implemented. They haven’t been able to be successful at, oh, I’m only going to use Instagram for two hours a day. So I’m going to set up the phone to only let me use it for two hours a day. But then, you know, you want to use it longer and you click okay. Or I’m going to turn my ringer off at night. But then your kids call or you have to be on a work call and then you feel failure. And so people feel like they can’t be successful because they’re always failing. So the trick with overwhelmed is, is to identify a very, very simple experiment that you can do for yourself that you know you’re going to be successful at, and do that for a week or two to prove to yourself that you can be successful. And then ideally, what we’re seeing in the data is that people feel most ready to make a change between, let’s say, 5 to 8pm on a weekday. And so choosing the time of day is important.
Sean Rasmussen [00:24:00]:
Okay.
Eli Singer [00:24:01]:
Like afternoons, people feel very overwhelmed. After midnight, people feel very overwhelmed. All day Friday, people feel very overwhelmed. Don’t make those your times where you’re gonna like, make that change happen, right? Those are the times to say to yourself, I’m feeling overwhelmed. Like, I get it. Like, that’s the time of day. Everyone’s feeling overwhelmed this time of day. I’m gonna forgive myself. But after dinner or after 5 o’ clock or in that period of time before bed, that’s when you want to set your experiments because you’ll feel most likely to be successful.
Sean Rasmussen [00:24:37]:
And what might some of those experiments look like?
Eli Singer [00:24:40]:
Well, this is the part of the story that I generally don’t like to give people answers, right. Because it’s so custom fitted. People have intimate relationships with their devices, right? They have. People’s houses are designed or places of residence are designed differently. Some people live in cold climates and warm. So saying, pick up a book, go for a walk, you know, put your phone down. And these just don’t resonate with everybody. They’re generic. You got to look at your life and say, what’s something I can do? Look at your bedroom. Look at your, you know, where if you want to, if you decide I want to Charge my phone outside of my bedroom. Let’s say, well, find a place in your house that will work for you that, like, works with your habits. If you have the phone at your dinner table, trying to kind of remove it. Trying to remove the phone from, like a family evening or an evening with your partner on your own is, like a good place to start. You might want to start with just turning off the ringer. Just turn it upside down. It can still be at the table. Can it be at the table? And you don’t pick it up until dessert. Right. Like, lower the bar as low as you can. Because the trick is to be successful. Don’t say, no more phones at meals ever. And you’re stuck.
Sean Rasmussen [00:26:04]:
Okay.
Eli Singer [00:26:05]:
So I don’t know, maybe. Maybe these are some good ideas for you.
Sean Rasmussen [00:26:09]:
Yeah. One thing I just did recently was to. When I leave the house, like, if I want to go for a walk or something, I just don’t take my phone with me.
Eli Singer [00:26:17]:
Yeah, but that can be very stressful for people.
Sean Rasmussen [00:26:20]:
I know. It actually found. Felt a little weird at first.
Eli Singer [00:26:23]:
So if that is something that’s very stressful for you, but that’s an experiment you want to try, make it as small as you can. So I will leave my phone at home, but I’m only going to go walk around the block or I’m going to leave my phone at home. I’m just going to walk to the end of my street and then back. Can you, like. And I’m not joking about this.
Sean Rasmussen [00:26:43]:
I know, but it’s kind of crazy that we’re at that place, isn’t it?
Eli Singer [00:26:46]:
But that’s okay. It’s just where we’re at. For some people, this will be very silly. And they’ll be like, yeah, of course I can do that. And some people, it’s very serious. And so that’s why meeting people where they’re at is why it’s so important. And not bringing judgment or shame to the table is crucial because people have a lot of feelings with their device. And like, you don’t know, like, if someone has a sick child or a sick parent or they run a business or they, you know, they need to have that phone with them all the time. They could get a call for sure.
Sean Rasmussen [00:27:20]:
We have an aging parent that we want to make sure we’re kind of around for just in case.
Eli Singer [00:27:26]:
Like, I spoke with someone the other day and she has to sleep with the phone in her bedroom because she could get a call from a parent, but because the phone is next to her bed, it’s the doorway into a whole universe of experiences that she doesn’t want to be having at three in the morning or at midnight when she’s trying to read before bed. So we talked about it and we said, well, why don’t you just get yourself a Bluetooth handset?
Eli Singer [00:27:54]:
They make these retro phone Bluetooth handsets that you can keep by your bed and it’ll ring, but so it’s only a phone. You can’t check your email or anything. Like, she loved that idea. She’d never thought of that concept before. So there’s like a creativity that you can bring to the table here. This doesn’t have to be about punishing yourself. This is about like you’re motivated to make a change so that you can achieve something else, right? Like people are often want to use their phone or device less so they have more time for connection with a partner, going to the gym, being outside, getting more work done, being focused, studying what have you. So this is about achieving a goal. This isn’t about punishment.
Sean Rasmussen [00:28:40]:
I guess it depends on where you’re at because some people, you say there’s this unconcerned quadrant, right, where people are.
Eli Singer [00:28:46]:
Just like unconscious quadrant’s the interesting one, right? So this is the high confidence, low motivation, I don’t have a problem and I can change anytime I want, right? So this one actually can go either one of two ways. You’re either, that’s true, you don’t have a problem, you can change anytime you want. You’re amazing, you’re unconcerned or you’re lying to yourself. But in either, in either case, the test there is. You give yourself an advanced test and you be honest with how it went. So again, like you should design what that challenging test is for yourself, you know, but if you’re so capable and you can change anytime you want, great. Well then have a phone free weekend, right? Have a phone free day, leave it at home, go to work, pretend you forgot it, see how you do. And if you can get by and you then great. But if, if all of a sudden you’re realizing there’s, there’s like a real issue here, like I’m looking for it, I’m missing it, I’m like having, I’m, I’m breaking down, then maybe you need to retake that assessment and be honest with your answers. Or more honest, I should say.
Sean Rasmussen [00:29:58]:
Yeah. And then there’s the stuck quadrant too, right?
Eli Singer [00:30:02]:
So the stuck is low motivation, low self confidence. So this is an individual typically who has tried. So like they Just feeling stuck. They’ve tried. They’ve never been. They haven’t been able to make the change that they want.
Eli Singer [00:30:20]:
They’re not even trying anymore. What’s the point? I’ll never be able to be successful. So for them, your goal is to grow both the confidence and motivation. So we’ve talked about growing confidence, like with overwhelmed and growing. Motivation can take lots of different forms, right? It can be. Do you remember what it felt like? Like, like. Like, why would you want to change to not you? Like, is it because you’re say, are you gaming all the time? Like, what is. What is the behavior that you’re stuck doing? Could you remember a time when you weren’t doing that? What did that feel like if you weren’t. If you didn’t have this stuck behavior, what would you love to be doing? Is it you? Is it learning an instrument? Is it spending time with friends? Is it being outdoors? Like, what would that feel like? Can you imagine yourself doing that? How proud of yourself would you be if you were able to do that? So what we’re trying to do is set the emotional stakes, right? Have someone be able to imagine themselves being that person to increase their motivation, right. Their desire to make a change, while at the same time you’re building confidence by choosing the right steps. What’s great about Stuck is you can go from stuck to ready, right? You can just get motivated and get fired up. And if you build your confidence in a structured way, then no problem, you’ve proven yourself, you can do it, and you can get yourself unstuck and it can happen quickly.
Sean Rasmussen [00:31:55]:
Yeah, I guess there’s a growing awareness regarding the motivation piece. I know that they’re trying to get phones out of schools and they’re trying to do a bunch of things from a policy level for kids because they know that this is really harmful for kids. But I think that’s also making adults ask the same question of themselves and how they’re using the. The technologies too. Right? If it’s bad for kids, is it. Is it also bad for me? Is it?
Eli Singer [00:32:21]:
Yeah. I mean, I think that there. This news is everywhere. And I think if there’s the objective mental health data, the science that’s coming out that people are reading and, you know, science always takes a long time to manifest and the studies to show themselves longitudinally. But then people see it in their lives of their aging parents, their partners, their kids, so their own behavior. So it can be made real pretty fast.
Sean Rasmussen [00:32:50]:
So there could be maybe a growing digital literacy that people are. It’s dawning on people that these things aren’t just accidental, they’re actually a choice you have to make or something.
Eli Singer [00:33:02]:
Right. So the thing that’s interesting about the digital literacy is the offline matrix component, at least for me, is because.
Eli Singer [00:33:14]:
Prior to this matrix, and I’ve seen this with lots of people, there is no language around phone overuse or your phone behaviors. I just need to use my phone less. I can’t name that feeling. I just know I’m using it too much and I don’t know where to begin. But being able to say, oh, I’m overwhelmed. Okay, all right, now I can name that feeling. I’m feeling overwhelmed. What do I do when I’m overwhelmed? Oh, I’m feeling stuck. What does that mean when I’m stuck? Right. And so it’s not just phone overuse as a generic term. You know, if you are able to give that some vocabulary, then people can start to name it for themselves and understand where to go. It’s a framework.
Sean Rasmussen [00:34:03]:
Yeah. In your book you do offer some practical strategies near the end there a few kind of key things that people might want to look at. And one of them was this. Taming the notification beast.
Eli Singer [00:34:17]:
Yeah.
Sean Rasmussen [00:34:17]:
You say, can you talk a bit about that?
Eli Singer [00:34:20]:
Well, you know, I mean your phone loves to grab your attention for all the reasons we discussed. And then each one of those apps on your phone also like has its own self interest to grab your attention. And if you don’t manage your phone, then it will manage you. And your phone has all of these features in it for managing notifications.
Eli Singer [00:34:41]:
Take a look at, you know, I mean you can be very particular about it and get yourself a note paper and write down every single notification that comes at you during the day and then classify it as important, not important, maybe important, and get rid of all the not important ones you see. How many times did it beep at you? Hundreds of times. Only 30 times. Right. And every time it beeped at you, did you check? Yeah. So notifications can be insidious. I remember I used to have one of those old blackberries and, and the first thing I did when I had it was, you know that little light that turned on every time you got a message and it didn’t matter. Like the phone doesn’t know if it’s an important message or not. It just starts to beep. It just starts to flash and beep. It was like the first thing I did was turn that off.
Sean Rasmussen [00:35:34]:
Yeah, for sure. There’s a couple more things, strategies you talk about. One of them was creating the digital free zones. I thought this was really interesting. Can you elaborate on that one?
Eli Singer [00:35:45]:
You know, there’s just, there’s just some value in having physical spaces or time with people that are just carved out digital free so that, you know, you can just make time for other things that are important. Because like we talked about the form, the phones will worm their way into your life. And so you could think about this as the people I want to be able to kind of get closer to and when am I with them and when can we design maybe a little phone free experiences together? And it can be the places in your house where you’re like, you know what, I want to. This place is for sleep. Right. And I find the phone interrupts. It can also be a source of adventure. Like, like I said, like this does not need to be a punishment. You were able to navigate your world without your device. Right. You could, you could get on transit, you could go to a restaurant, you could go to a park. You pick any activity. And there was a time when phones didn’t exist. They can, it can be enjoyed without those devices too. It’s like even today. And if you would feel more comfortable letting the people around, you know, like, hey, I’m going out this afternoon and I’m leaving my phone at home and tomorrow I’m going out in the afternoon, leaving my phone. If there’s anything you’re going to need from me, I’m not going to be available from 12 to 5. Can we deal with it before or after?
Sean Rasmussen [00:37:19]:
Right.
Eli Singer [00:37:19]:
Like if it make you feel better, let the people you care about know. If you need me, reach out to my partner, reach out to my sibling because I’m just not going to be available at this time.
Sean Rasmussen [00:37:29]:
Yeah, you can sort of train people in a way too, right?
Eli Singer [00:37:32]:
Yeah.
Sean Rasmussen [00:37:33]:
If you don’t always respond to texts quickly, then people will go, okay, I’m not going to get a response right now. So yeah.
Eli Singer [00:37:38]:
But sometimes being purposeful about it is really important because that way people aren’t going to be mad at you when you’re not always available. And other people’s expectations can be a real part of. Because it’s a social. The phones are social devices and the pla and the software on them is social experiences. And so there’s like a bit of an implied social contract there. So if you’re not present.
Eli Singer [00:38:04]:
It can be damaging to those relationships, which makes it harder to take a break from the device.
Sean Rasmussen [00:38:09]:
Yeah. And related to this idea too is this reconnecting to the Offline world. I think that’s a pretty powerful concept. I wonder if you could dive into that a little bit.
Eli Singer [00:38:20]:
I mean you’re talking to a guy that likes to be in a lake, that like to live in a trailer in the bush. So you know, there is, we’ve got five senses. How many of those senses are you using when you use your device? You’re not really using smell, you know, you’re not really using touch. And there’s just an enormous amount of other experiences that you can feed your brain and your body that are, that. I’m not even going to say that they’re healthier. I’m just going to say that they’re different. And like variety is the spice of life. So you’re spending, if you’re an average American, you’re spending adult, you’re spending over seven hours a day on a device. That’s a lot of device and screen centric information going into your brain. You should probably get some variety there. Right. And so carving out time for device free time outside in the world with other people, with other forms of stimulation and input. Whatever gets you excited, chase it down.
Sean Rasmussen [00:39:34]:
One of the things I like about the Jewish tradition, I’m not Jewish myself, but they have this kind of inbuilt thing which is the day one sort of part of the week where they don’t use devices and stuff like this. So it’s, it’s, they’re sort of primed in a way for this kind of ability to check out of these things. I love that idea of just being, having one day where you know that everyone’s just not doing that.
Eli Singer [00:40:01]:
Yeah, I’ve been trying to do that a little bit more in my life. As an entrepreneur doing a startup, it’s very easy to work seven days a week and squeeze, squeeze like laptop time into every moment because there’s just enormous amount that needs to be done.
Sean Rasmussen [00:40:17]:
Yeah.
Eli Singer [00:40:18]:
And I like my work a lot, but that comes at the expense of other things, whether it’s the people around me or the work I want to do. So I think it’s just really valuable to whatever it is that you’re doing to make time to do different things and meet different people and have different experiences and carving out a day for that or a half day for that, you know, is, is or an evening for that is a great way to have a rule, you know, and just carve it out.
Sean Rasmussen [00:40:52]:
Are there any topics we haven’t talked about yet that you feel like we should maybe.
Eli Singer [00:40:57]:
What did you think about the part in the book where it was like a hundred ideas of things you could do instead of your phone.
Sean Rasmussen [00:41:01]:
Oh, that’s cool. Yeah.
Eli Singer [00:41:02]:
Did you like that part? Did anything jump out at you? That’s like one of my favorite parts of the book. I tried really hard. Right. My favorite was to try to sing your favorite album from start to finish in order without. Yeah. I don’t know. So that, like, I tried really hard. That’s. I would. I would recommend that part of the book to anybody. Just because there’s like a lot of generic. Put your phone down and go for a walk.
Sean Rasmussen [00:41:31]:
Yeah.
Eli Singer [00:41:31]:
You know, put your phone down and read a book. And I just think that’s just not so helpful.
Sean Rasmussen [00:41:37]:
Yeah.
Eli Singer [00:41:38]:
So try to just do something really fun there.
Sean Rasmussen [00:41:41]:
Yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. If people want to find out more about you and your company offline now. And also the book, where can they go?
Eli Singer [00:41:49]:
Yeah, our URL is offline now. And go take a self assessment. Go take a look at the expert directory. And if you find someone that is interesting to you, book yourself a free meeting with them. Meet them, say hello, see what they have to say, ask them your questions. They’re confidential, so I think that’s exciting. And if you’re someone who is a therapist or a coach or a social worker and you’re looking to grow your practice and you like working with people who are interested in changing their habits, please come check out the site and we’d love to have you join the community.
Sean Rasmussen [00:42:31]:
Great. Thanks so much. And I’ll put links to those things in the show notes as well. Thanks so much for coming on and talking about this issue. It’s something I’ve been wanting to address for a long time, since I. Ever since I started the podcast, so two years ago. So I’m really happy to have a conversation with you about it.
Eli Singer [00:42:47]:
Sean, this has been fantastic. Thanks for having me.
Sean Rasmussen [00:42:55]:
That’s it for this episode of Viewpoints. Thanks for listening. If you like viewpoint diversity and you want to hear more like this, don’t forget to subscribe, rate and review the show wherever you get your podcasts. To find out more, visit ViewpointSpartcast CA and if you have ideas for topics or guests, we’d love to hear from you. You can connect using the contact form in the website or you can send me an email directly at sean@viewpointspodcast.ca.
